scatter feeding/diet question

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oowie
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scatter feeding/diet question

Post by oowie » Wed Jul 15, 2020 12:52 pm

hi guys,

atm i use paper pellets in the base of my cage, i like this substrate very much, but can it also be uses for scatter feeding?

another diet question also:
one of my rats was very selective with the RR food, so i mostly feed science selective nuggets now, with fresh veggies and some RR mix for variety. do you think this is ok?
my rats also didn't like the water with DE1 and calcivet in it, and when i fed fresh food with DR3 they left a lot of the DR3. so supplements i don't trust to be effective for them.
do you think 60% SS pellets, 20% fresh veggies, 20% RR mix is ok?
this is SS:

Vitamin A20000 IU, Vitamin D°2000 IU, Iron (E1)50mg, Iodine (E2)1.5mg, Copper (E4)7.5mg, Manganese (E5)30mg, Zinc (E6)100mg, Selenium (E8)0.25mg
Analytical Constituents
Protein14.0%, Crude fibre4.0%, Fat content4.0%, Inorganic matter5.0%, Calcium0.6%, Phosphorus0.4%
Composition
Wheat, soybean meal, barley, oats, soya oil, dried apples, dried blackcurrants, wheat feed, limestone flour, salt
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Re: scatter feeding/diet question

Post by [cub] » Thu Jul 16, 2020 1:33 pm

Paper pellets aren't great for scatter feeding since they're pretty heavy. You can do it, obviously, and it's still more interesting to scatter feed on pellets than not at all, but it doesn't provide the same kind of digging opportunities as lighter substrates. I'd suggest chopped cardboard instead as a substrate for better foraging, or give them a digging box of shredded paper or newspaper.

If you had a rat that was genuinely so picky about food that they wouldn't eat a balanced diet on a mix no matter what you tried (only feeding them just enough, scatter feeding, splitting feeds into 2 or even 3 meals a day), then Science Selective is perfectly fine. Since the pieces are so big, they're fairly easy to find when scatter feeding so you can do more challenging things with them: put them in the bottom of a digging box, put them in closed cardboard boxes, get one of those parrot foraging wheels, etc.

With DR3, what kind of fresh food were you using? I generally feed it in mushy stuff like scrambled egg or dog food and I stir it in so it's impossible to eat the food without also eating the DR3. Something like baby food would be easiest. It's got a fairly chalky texture (that's calcium for you) so if it's sat on top in a separate layer no wonder they're avoiding it.
Poo-shoveller to: Calyn (NLA32); Zephyr Nyahir; Zephyr Zymandis; Zephyr Blasto.
Fondly remembering: Zephyr Mick Jagger "Edgeworth"; Din (NLA28); Zephyr Donovan "Phoenix"; Xeltan; Lita (NLA32); Lia (NLA28); Zephyr Delanynder (NLA28); Falere (NLA36); Mirala (NLA36); Zephyr Opold; Rila.

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oowie
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Re: scatter feeding/diet question

Post by oowie » Thu Jul 16, 2020 6:58 pm

I have tried all kinds of fresh food with DR3: Cooked carbs, oily fish, scrambled egg, on a dried piece of bread woth some oil.... he just does not like it. Without DR3 he eats about everything.
Maybe i can scatter feed a little bit RRmix in the substrate and put the science selective in foraging parrot toys?

The only thing i worry about with SS is that the copper content is pretty low. Will this still be enough when i only feed about 60% SS?
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Re: scatter feeding/diet question

Post by [cub] » Fri Jul 17, 2020 11:30 am

oowie wrote:
Thu Jul 16, 2020 6:58 pm
The only thing i worry about with SS is that the copper content is pretty low. Will this still be enough when i only feed about 60% SS?
The main symptom of copper deficiency that I've heard of is rats developing rings of very pale fur around their eyes. So you could just keep an eye out for that, and not worry about it otherwise.
Poo-shoveller to: Calyn (NLA32); Zephyr Nyahir; Zephyr Zymandis; Zephyr Blasto.
Fondly remembering: Zephyr Mick Jagger "Edgeworth"; Din (NLA28); Zephyr Donovan "Phoenix"; Xeltan; Lita (NLA32); Lia (NLA28); Zephyr Delanynder (NLA28); Falere (NLA36); Mirala (NLA36); Zephyr Opold; Rila.

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Re: scatter feeding/diet question

Post by oowie » Sat Jul 25, 2020 7:54 pm

Thanks i will keep an eye on it.
Would it work to scatterfeed in a layer B2N on the cagefloor (for absorption and odour control) with greenmile on top it it?
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Re: scatter feeding/diet question

Post by cyber ratty » Sun Jul 26, 2020 11:41 am

Yes that will probably work okay - although the greenmile will be good at absorption and odour control anyway so you don't really need to shell out for the extra B2N.

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Re: scatter feeding/diet question

Post by oowie » Wed Jul 29, 2020 3:09 pm

i am still trying with DR3....
Water with DE1 and calcivet is ignored....fresh food with DR3 is not my rats taste....

I have tried:
-Microwaved scrambled egg with DR3 in it (is heating the DR3 that way ok and safe?)
-dried bread with linseed oil and DR3
-yoghurt with DR3
-soya vanille yoghurt with DR3
-RR softfood with DR3
-veggies with DR3
-Cooked rice or other carbs with DR3

What is the favorit of your picky rat to hide DR3 in?
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Re: scatter feeding/diet question

Post by oowie » Wed Jul 29, 2020 3:35 pm

I think the scrambled egg worked ok.... they don't love it with DR3 in it. ,but they do eat it.

how much egg is ok to feed between 2 rats in 1 week, to hide the DR3 in?
Depending on the ages:
- for growing babies (to lets say 3 months old)
- for 3 month old to puber rats (12 months)
- for adults 12- 18 months age
- for oldies 18 months and older

I was thinking maybe 1 egg between 2 rats per week, and add 14 daily doses to the scambled egg (about 4,5 scoop)?
Or should i feed less egg and add more DR3?
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Re: scatter feeding/diet question

Post by oowie » Thu Jul 30, 2020 6:50 am

I have been thinking: if i cannot get them to eat stuff with supplements in it, and i want to continue using the RR mix....
would it be enough to feed about 20% Copper Top-Up Cubes - Red Mills from RR?
do your rats like that?

Nutritional Analysis

Protein 14.0%
Oil 4.20%
Fibre 10.5%
Ash7.5%
Moisture (Max) 15.0%
Copper 115mg/kg
Vitamin A 12,000iu/kg
Vitamin D3 2,000iu/kg
Vitamin E (alpha tocopherol) 200iu/kg
Calcium 1.0%
Phosphorus 0.6%
Digestible Energy 11.5MJDE/kg
Ingredients (in descending order by weight):

Oats, Maize, Barley, Soya Bean Extruded (1), Soya (bean) hulls (1), Cane Molasses, Sunflower seed meal, Wheat, Soya (bean) meal (1), Mono-dicalcium phosphate, Calcium carbonate, Sodium chloride (salt), Sodium bicarbonate, Magnesium Oxide. (1) Produced from Genetically Modified Soyabeans

or barley rings?:
Barley rings, for horses are made from cooked barley with added linseed for coat condition.

Although traditionally fed to horses, barley rings can also be given to small pets as an excellent source of copper.

Break into smaller pieces and add to the dry mix.

Protein 11.0%
Crude Fibre 4.3%
Crude Fat 6.0%
Ash 5.2%
Sodium 0.38%
Copper 100mg/kg
Vitamin A
Vitamin D
Vitamin E
Iron
Calcium
Manganese
Zinc
Selenium
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Re: scatter feeding/diet question

Post by [cub] » Thu Jul 30, 2020 11:24 am

oowie wrote:
Wed Jul 29, 2020 3:09 pm
-Microwaved scrambled egg with DR3 in it (is heating the DR3 that way ok and safe?)
I am not a dietitian or food scientist, but the conclusion I came to is that it's almost certainly fine. Most minerals are pretty stable when heated, and while some vitamins do degrade under heat (particularly C and some of the Bs), vitamin D is much more robust. I do try and mix in the DR3 after cooking if I can just in case, but if I end up having to pre-mix it I don't worry about it. I don't think there's anything intrinsic about microwave cooking that would make it particularly damaging to micronutrients or unsafe; all microwaves do is jiggle the water molecules in the food which makes it heat up.
oowie wrote:
Wed Jul 29, 2020 3:09 pm
What is the favorit of your picky rat to hide DR3 in?
I've never had a rat object to DR3 in their fresh meals, but if I did I'd probably treat it like any other medication they didn't like. Biscoff spread is my go-to for difficult meds; it's very sugary and fatty so definitely a treat, but once or twice a week is okay (particularly if you reduce their other treats accordingly). It comes in smooth and crunchy varieties; the crunchy version might help hide the texture.
oowie wrote:
Wed Jul 29, 2020 3:35 pm
how much egg is ok to feed between 2 rats in 1 week, to hide the DR3 in?
Depending on the ages:
- for growing babies (to lets say 3 months old)
- for 3 month old to puber rats (12 months)
- for adults 12- 18 months age
- for oldies 18 months and older
Eggs are high in protein so it really depends on how much protein is in the rest of their diet, both in the dry mix and in other fresh foods.

For adults (3-18 months) on a normal protein dry mix (~14%) I'd limit it to a quarter of an egg per rat per week. That way they can still have a modest amount of other high-protein fresh foods such as oily fish.

Babies (up to 3 months) can and should have a higher protein diet for most of that period in their life. (Robust breeder rats can have the protein reduced younger; rescues that haven't had the best start in life may need it for longer.) However I'd generally want them to have their extra protein from a variety of sources, not just more egg.

For older rats (18+ months) I prefer to adjust the dry mix to be lower protein (~12%) so I can continue giving a good amount and variety of fresh protein. If you can't do that I'd reduce it the egg a bit more (maybe a sixth of an egg per rat per week) so they can still have some oily fish.
Poo-shoveller to: Calyn (NLA32); Zephyr Nyahir; Zephyr Zymandis; Zephyr Blasto.
Fondly remembering: Zephyr Mick Jagger "Edgeworth"; Din (NLA28); Zephyr Donovan "Phoenix"; Xeltan; Lita (NLA32); Lia (NLA28); Zephyr Delanynder (NLA28); Falere (NLA36); Mirala (NLA36); Zephyr Opold; Rila.

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Re: scatter feeding/diet question

Post by [cub] » Thu Jul 30, 2020 11:55 am

oowie wrote:
Thu Jul 30, 2020 6:50 am
would it be enough to feed about 20% Copper Top-Up Cubes - Red Mills from RR?
do your rats like that?
I've never tried these so I can't comment on their palatability, but no they would not work as sole supplementation. People feed them because they're very high in copper (as the name suggests) so you only need a small amount to meet a rat's requirements. They're not however anywhere near as useful a source of calcium or vitamin D: you'd need nearly 8g per rat per day of these cubes to meet their Ca and vit D requirements.
oowie wrote:
Thu Jul 30, 2020 6:50 am
or barley rings?
Same problem with the barley rings. People feed them for the copper content (which has apparently also been reduced in the recent reformulation so they're not even as useful for that anymore). If you were relying on these for supplementation, then your dry mix would need to be 50% barley rings to meet their calcium requirements, and 100% barley rings to meet their vitamin D requirements. (I got the full nutritional analysis from the datasheet on their website.) None of my rats have been anywhere near as picky as yours and they were distinctly unenthusiastic about barley rings the one time I tried it, too.

Basically just because something is supplemented doesn't mean it's universally useful. It always depends on what it's supplemented with and to what degree. Different animals have very different micronutrient requirements, and also many of these foods are not intended to be the sole diet but rather an adjunct fed for a specific purpose.
Poo-shoveller to: Calyn (NLA32); Zephyr Nyahir; Zephyr Zymandis; Zephyr Blasto.
Fondly remembering: Zephyr Mick Jagger "Edgeworth"; Din (NLA28); Zephyr Donovan "Phoenix"; Xeltan; Lita (NLA32); Lia (NLA28); Zephyr Delanynder (NLA28); Falere (NLA36); Mirala (NLA36); Zephyr Opold; Rila.

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Re: scatter feeding/diet question

Post by oowie » Thu Jul 30, 2020 12:04 pm

Thanks for the reply,very helpfull. I will try some stuff to hide the DR3 in and hopefully i can find something that they do eat. I never had picky rats like this before! And without DR3 or other supplements, they eat almost everything. Guess they want to keep it all naturall....not possible guys, some supplementation is needed!
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Re: scatter feeding/diet question

Post by cyber ratty » Thu Jul 30, 2020 12:17 pm

How did you mix the liquid supplements? How much of each, in how much water, and how did you present it? How long did you leave it for? Did you leave a bottle of plain water as well?

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Re: scatter feeding/diet question

Post by oowie » Thu Jul 30, 2020 12:21 pm

i have mixed DE1 and calcivet in a small 75ml bottle, at first i tried the recommended dosage and after that i have tried it less and more diluted.

I have tried to only provide the supplemented water during the day, but they do not drink the whole day and go glcrazy for rhe clean water bottle in the evening.
I also tried providing a bottle wit supplemented water and a bottle with clean water, they only drink the clean water....
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Re: scatter feeding/diet question

Post by oowie » Thu Jul 30, 2020 4:55 pm

Haa! Some boiled plain macaroni did the trick!
I gave my 2 about 1/3 tablespoon cooked macaroni with 1 spoon DR3. They ate it all! Will try and see if i can use less macaroni next time. But hey....i have found something they eat with DR3 on it! :birthday:
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