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 Post subject: oh Norey... (something respy)
 Post Posted: Tue Sep 25, 2012 9:01 pm 
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Last week I was wondering if Norey had something heart related going on. She'd been a lot less active (mostly just sits in free range), flank breathing (silently) and even less interested in food than normal - which was presenting in a 'have a nibble and then leave it' way. Her chest, however, was clear. The vet had seen her only the week before this though (going as company for Wen) and had commented on how good she looked. I also talked to the vet about her last week and we were just watching her in case it was either weather-related (suddenly got cold) cleared up on it's own (has happened before with her), or was just her being picky like normal (she likes stashing, and hardly ever actually eats treats, just makes a pile).

Anyway, tonight, she's poofy and flank breathing, but also noisy. Chest noisy for the first time ever, rather than her usual nasal noise. By ear she's grunty, with a stethoscope she's also very squeaky. Stethoscope to the front of her chest gets more noise than on either side, if that means anything to anyone!
Her coat is really thin and staring and she's also lost 40g in a week and a half. There's nothing to her, while before although no muscle tone for a while, there was at least substance/ padding :(

What does squeaky mean as specifically different to grunty? A part of me wants to say fluid, but I'm not sure if I'm making that up or not?!
Her upper resp. issues have responded to baytril/ doxy/ co-amox and meloxicam and sudafed in the past. She hasn't responded to Zithromax. In terms of AB options, is a lower resp. infection in an older (27 months) rat likely to be the infection moving around the tract, or something else?

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 Post subject: Re: Lower resp. issues - oh Norey...
 Post Posted: Tue Sep 25, 2012 9:57 pm 
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dont wanna read and run i have no idea :( but hopefully someone comes along soon.

hopefully this will bump the thread and then someone will reply

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 Post subject: Re: Lower resp. issues - oh Norey...
 Post Posted: Wed Sep 26, 2012 2:39 am 
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acapae_wolf wrote:
What does squeaky mean as specifically different to grunty? A part of me wants to say fluid, but I'm not sure if I'm making that up or not?!


With my lot squeaky chest sounds have mostly been due to severe inflammation/narrowing of the airways rather than fluid alone, and treated with either Metacam or steroids (inhaled or injected) depending on the cause, with Norey sounding grunty at the same time though i'd treat with both abs and heart meds. Abs wise you'll probably have a better idea than me but i'd definitely do a high end dose combo to cover as much as possible. Daisy had several bouts of combined squeakey/grunty/gurgly breathing and it was usually the combination of abs (Baytril/Doxy or Baytril/Co amox), heart meds (Fortekor/Frusemide) and Metacam/steroids (Voren 14) that did the trick rather than abs alone. x


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 Post subject: Re: Lower resp. issues - oh Norey...
 Post Posted: Wed Sep 26, 2012 2:46 am 
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She's had a high-end dose of baytril and half her allotted medium/ high of co-amox (and then gave up). Those drugs as that's what I have in the house - not had any spare doxy for a while :( And she's eaten a big forkful of mashed banana and flax oil. Now she's eating some bread and butter. Got her and the podgy people (Arky, Foxtrot, Larka when she comes out from where ever she's hiding) in the hospital cage upstairs on a heatmat.

Going to the vets first thing, but I'm not sure what I'm after! Her extremities are freezing, but I don't think that really clarifies between heart and pneumonia... It's why she's not staying in the duetto though. Hopefully I'll get Laura-vet, but though she's good and listens, my rats are pretty much the only rats she sees, so not really that experienced.

What would be the symptoms/ thoughts that would sway you either way between heart meds and steroids?

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 Post subject: Re: Lower resp. issues - oh Norey...
 Post Posted: Wed Sep 26, 2012 4:22 am 
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Hopefully your vet will be able to determine whats going on when listening to her chest and then decide if
both/or heart meds/steroids migh help. It wasn't really a case of me deciding which meds (Heart/steroids) to go for as I wouldn't have had a clue back then :oops: with Daisy it was more the abs wern't doing much to help after a while and despite trying various combos her breathing was still very noisey, it was then suggested that her long term resp problems may have affected her heart and the fluid around her heart may have also been infected, hence the confusing array of chest sounds so we tried heart meds alongside various abs which seemed to do the trick. The steroids were used more for acute flareups to start with then as time went on she seemed to need them more often especially with the squeaky chest sounds, sometimes this was down to her having an acute resp flare up but twice the symptoms were due to her having pneumonia, fingers crossed it's not that with Norey :(

Now in older girls for resp symptoms they'll either have abs alone, if they don't work and their sounding gurgly they normally get abs and heart meds and if the chest sounds are squeaky it's usually been abs and Metacam or steroids. x


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 Post subject: Re: Lower resp. issues - oh Norey...
 Post Posted: Wed Sep 26, 2012 7:53 am 
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Oh for a slightly more experienced/ dependable vet...

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 Post subject: Re: Lower resp. issues - oh Norey...
 Post Posted: Wed Sep 26, 2012 8:42 am 
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I'd agree with all of the above and chuck in some bisolvon in case it's mucous and not fluid causing the noise. Have you considered nebulising?

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 Post subject: Re: Lower resp. issues - oh Norey...
 Post Posted: Wed Sep 26, 2012 12:06 pm 
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Blah, after all that, I handily stayed awake worrying and went to sleep just before the vets opened XD They have appts in the morning and then open surgery in the afternoon. And I woke up just as appt time was ending. Oops. Phoned up and they let me squish in between call-outs (mixed practice).

Pneumonia for sures :( Maybe heart on top, but he couldn't hear it at all, so ignoring it for now.
She's sticking with baytril, and has Tribrissen instead of co-amox as there's leukocytes in her pee. Got 80mg pills as they're only twice the size of the 20mg ones, so less for her to eat. And she's had some 3 day dex too.

Er, and I asked about bisolvon, but they forgot to give me some, and I've only just noticed. Oops. Will call in during open surgery later.

Rhian33 wrote:
Have you considered nebulising?

It panics her badly, unfortunately.

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 Post subject: Re: Lower resp. issues - oh Norey...
 Post Posted: Wed Sep 26, 2012 12:10 pm 
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Nothing useful to add, but wanted to send scritches to Norey :love:

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 Post subject: Re: oh Norey... *ETA pneumonia*
 Post Posted: Wed Sep 26, 2012 2:05 pm 
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Thanks. I forgot to say too, it's mostly her left lung; while her right has some noise, there's less. Which is better than both being gross I guess. Also she's still happy to drink from the water bottle, and she had some milk last night :)

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 Post subject: Re: oh Norey... *ETA pneumonia*
 Post Posted: Wed Sep 26, 2012 3:20 pm 
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Oh poor Norey, I was really hoping it wouldn't be pneumonia :(

Your vet said more or less the same as mine when Daisy had pneumonia, her chest was making so much noise that he couldn't hear her heart at all either. It was at this point that we started heart meds. I'd see how she does post Dex, new ab, and if her breathing is still bad then i'd ask to try heart meds or at the very least Frusemide. Prior to that we regularly gave Daisy a dose of Bisolvon but it didn't seem to have any effect with her (that could have been due to me being paranoid and only using a tiny pinch though) so i'd try it prior to any heart meds, if it works then your vet might be more able to hear what her heart is doing and whether heart meds might help.

Pneumonia would also account for her signifigant weight loss, despite being very ill at times Daisy always had a good appetite which i'm sure would have helped get her through, but she did need significantly more in the way of calories than normal just to keep her weight stable, so i'd also give free access to lots of calory laden foods and fluids. x


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 Post subject: Re: oh Norey... *ETA pneumonia*
 Post Posted: Wed Sep 26, 2012 7:24 pm 
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For high-calorie, easily eaten food, my vet recommends cottage cheese.

If you don't have Bisolvon, Sudafed for children aged 6 acts as a mucolytic/decongestant.

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 Post subject: Re: oh Norey... *ETA pneumonia*
 Post Posted: Wed Sep 26, 2012 7:25 pm 
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Sudafed is a decongestant, but it doesn't help with mucus in the chest cavity itself. I will try her out with cheese though, thanks. She's eating some banana in milk with added coconut at the minute - which I got her after I heard her attempting some dry food.

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 Post subject: Re: oh Norey... *ETA pneumonia*
 Post Posted: Wed Sep 26, 2012 8:03 pm 
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viewtopic.php?f=43&t=13349

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 Post subject: Re: oh Norey... *ETA pneumonia*
 Post Posted: Thu Sep 27, 2012 11:04 pm 
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Eh, she's acting brighter, but she looks iller... On the plus side, she now weighs 308g (up from 295 on Tuesday) :D

Picking up bisolvon tomorrow (it wasn't forgotten, they were ordering some in).

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