Need advice from recessive hairless breeders.. Skin question

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artgecko
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Need advice from recessive hairless breeders.. Skin question

Post by artgecko » Tue Oct 06, 2015 12:41 am

I have a quick question for those of you that have experience with hairless rats. I'm trying to select my keeper and my original choice appears to have drier skin than the others.. The skin seems looser and more wrinkly than the other 3.. The others appear to have tighter smoother skin.

My question for you guys is whether or not this might be a sign that he will have skin issues later on? Have any of you ever seen this with your hairless? Unfortunately, I only have room to keep one of these, so I'd like to keep one that will be the least likely to pass on skin conditions.

The breeder who I purchased the parents from was unaware that recessive hairless was carried in her lines and so, has no information on skin issues they might or might not have. The litter also contained velveteens, so it is possible that he might also be a velveteen (not sure if that would effect his skin).

I'd appreciate any feedback you guys might have on this.. Other than the skin issue, he seems the best choice (temperament wise).

Thanks for your time and help!

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cyber ratty
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Re: Need advice from recessive hairless breeders.. Skin ques

Post by cyber ratty » Tue Oct 06, 2015 8:27 am

I only know one breeder in the UK who is working with hairless (and there are several hairless genes, so hers may not be the same as yours), she's not been breeding them for long, and she doesn't use this forum anymore.

You might find it useful to join the NFRS and then you can ask detailed breeding questions on that forum, but as you're in the US, an American based forum may be better placed to answer about hairless.

btw - it would help to avoid confusion if you pop your location into your profile, otherwise people will assume you are in the UK. ;)

artgecko
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Re: Need advice from recessive hairless breeders.. Skin ques

Post by artgecko » Tue Oct 06, 2015 12:13 pm

Thanks! And sorry about the location being missing... I could've sworn that I had put that in already. I will fix that shortly.

Unfortunately, there are no breeding-friendly US forums... at least none that I've been able to find. All are adoption only and will immediately kill any thread that mentions planned breeding. That was why I sought your forum out. I wish people in the US were more reasonable about breeding.. It seems they want to have their cake and eat it too (they tell people to buy from good breeders, then forbid discussing breeding and discourage anyone from pursuing it). :/

I will fix my profile and look into the other forum you mentioned. Doesn't the NFRS not allow hairless to be bred / shown with their organization? I wasn't sure if they would have anyone experienced with them because of that.

Thanks for your time and help!

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cyber ratty
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Re: Need advice from recessive hairless breeders.. Skin ques

Post by cyber ratty » Tue Oct 06, 2015 1:48 pm

The NFRS don't permit hairless at shows, because there is no evidence yet that the variety isn't intrinsically harmful to the rats - but that doesn't mean they won't allow discussions about them or their breeding, however there may not be many people with experience that can help you. On the flip side though, your experience will be of interest, and may help anyone who is considering working with hairless.

I'll contact the person who does breed them, in case she can help you on here. :luck:

Tenmashi
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Re: Need advice from recessive hairless breeders.. Skin ques

Post by Tenmashi » Tue Oct 06, 2015 1:58 pm

Doesn't the American Fancy Rat and Mouse Association have a forum or something? Or some other American rat club?
~Elise & the rats of Rattery Castor: Bagheera, Dex, Doctor, Elrond, Eomer, Fenris, Flowix, Gregory, Grissom & H2O, H'amneko, Arwen, Brennan, Celestia, Deb, Donna, Rapunzel, Elwynn, Eonar, GLaDOS, Geronimo

artgecko
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Re: Need advice from recessive hairless breeders.. Skin ques

Post by artgecko » Tue Oct 06, 2015 9:11 pm

Tennashi- The RMCA has a tiny forum that is not used (last post was in 2010 I think) and it is not open to non-members.
AFRMA does not appear to have a forum.. They have links to breeders' sites, but no actual forum.
Cyber ratty- the NFRS does have a forum... a large one from the looks of it, but they will only allow NFRS members to register (you have to use your registered rattery name).

The only groups I've found in the states that openly discuss breeding are groups on facebook.. I may post about this there and see what they say. I prefer forums because you can search topics and find threads you've started easily, but I will see if they have any information I can use on the FB groups I know of. I did find one small US pet rodent forum that does not forbid discussion of breeding, so I will post there and see if anyone has any information.

I may end up not breeding from any of the hairless.. Even if I do keep one back. I did not breed for these intentionally, although I do find them interesting. I may pass on this male just because of his possible skin condition and select one of his siblings instead in case this is something that could cause issues down the road. he is young yet (4 weeks tomorrow) so I will see how his skin develops before he reaches rehoming age.

Thanks for your help!

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cyber ratty
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Re: Need advice from recessive hairless breeders.. Skin ques

Post by cyber ratty » Wed Oct 07, 2015 8:56 am

Yes, the NFRS is for members only, but there are a few non-UK members.

If you want to try a facebook group, I recommend this one https://www.facebook.com/groups/Seriousrats/ - most of the members are American, but there are also some from Australia, the UK, and other countries.

Tenmashi
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Re: Need advice from recessive hairless breeders.. Skin ques

Post by Tenmashi » Wed Oct 07, 2015 12:31 pm

What cyber ratty said. :) I'm both on the NFRS forum and in the Serious rats Facebook group and finding them really helpful, even though I'm from the Netherlands. ;)
~Elise & the rats of Rattery Castor: Bagheera, Dex, Doctor, Elrond, Eomer, Fenris, Flowix, Gregory, Grissom & H2O, H'amneko, Arwen, Brennan, Celestia, Deb, Donna, Rapunzel, Elwynn, Eonar, GLaDOS, Geronimo

artgecko
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Re: Need advice from recessive hairless breeders.. Skin ques

Post by artgecko » Wed Oct 07, 2015 1:29 pm

Thanks so much for your help!

I may consider joining the NFRS... But It will be a little while yet before I do so. I haven't even decided which (if any) of the US clubs I will join.. There are literally no club shows within about a half-day's drive of me so showing would not be practical. I also have yet to choose a rattery name, so I'll have to muddle over that before I decide and join any clubs. I am seriously looking into joining the NARR (North American Rat Registry) so that I can register and keep track of my litters and pedigrees.

Thanks for the recommendation on the FB group. I had not heard of that one. I will definitly try to join and post there.

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ronelrat
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Re: Need advice from recessive hairless breeders.. Skin ques

Post by ronelrat » Thu Oct 08, 2015 9:40 pm

Join the facebook group: serious rat genetics, breeding and ownership
Mainly USA breeders but also a few from Australia, UK, Netherlands and South Africa. Make sure to read the rules before you post.

artgecko
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Re: Need advice from recessive hairless breeders.. Skin ques

Post by artgecko » Fri Oct 09, 2015 12:46 am

Thanks! I joined and posted my question. Didn't get manyresponses though.. I guess no one has run into this before. They do have a lot of rules, but I guess they help to keep discussions on point.

I'm thinking I'll hold onto 2 of the hairless, this male and his (probably mink or Russian dove) brother and just see how they age and their skin does. If his skin stays extra dry or gets worse, I will breed from his brother and not him.

Thanks again for your input!

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Re: Need advice from recessive hairless breeders.. Skin ques

Post by Maidenhair Moxie » Sun Oct 11, 2015 12:43 pm

Hello, I think I'm the breeder cyber ratty mentioned.... (thanks for the heads up Mary)

I'm currently working with the sole aim of improving hairless rats health so my selection process for breeding is extremely strict. l have little to no concern over colours and markings etc apart from keeping the recessives to an absolute minimum to avoid any added interference on the health front.

I have a limited amount of resource's so I have to be extremely strict in picking my keepers l dont have room etc to experiment with and keep 'maybe's so i dismiss anyone who shows any kind of 'abnormality' or not quite rightness. and only breed from the fittest healthiest rat with the best all round conformation and chance of growing up to be as healthy as can be so personally even if the little fella was otherwise perfect but showed signs of poor skin condition i wouldnt breed from him and would choose someone else whos skin was healthier. I also choose to breed my rats as slow as possible so they are at the upper age limit when they have their first litters so l have 6-8 months Of health data on does and 10-18 months data on bucks to help me decide if they are suitable to breed from. In case any issues arise as they grow .

Hope this helps.x
Maidenhair Rattery - Breeding for health & Longevity on the south coast with agouti & black, hairless & smooth, marked varieties.

Love Hairless Rats ?

artgecko
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Re: Need advice from recessive hairless breeders.. Skin ques

Post by artgecko » Wed Oct 14, 2015 11:33 pm

Thanks so much for your time and your reply! Sorry I haven't been around the site in the last few days (was on vacation).

Can you tell me any health issues in particular that you are looking to avoid with your hairless, or ones that you have seen are prominent?

This little guy's skin seems to have cleared up, but I will be keeping an eye on that and their eyes as well. One of the hairless seems to be growing slower than his siblings and has not developed (testicles haven't really dropped well yet) as quickly. I had already disqualified him as a possible keeper but I'm glad the others are not showing those issues.

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neotoma
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Re: Need advice from recessive hairless breeders.. Skin ques

Post by neotoma » Sat Nov 14, 2015 10:39 am

Are we talking big wrinkles, or what make-up companies call fine wrinkles? Big wrinkles in hairless I've seen mainly seem to be a weight thing (the skinnier the wrinklier).

The thing I would worry about breeding hairless if you don't know much about the line is eye problems. They can get a few different types - ingrowing lashes which cause irritation and inflammation, or a lack of eyelashes which allows crud to build up in the eye-socket, which can cause infection and lead to the loss of the eye if not cleaned out. For example my double rex / hairless rescue girl has already lost one eye before I got her (which lead to multiple surgeries as it had refused to heal the first time, and then she kept reopening the revision - in the end she had to have the socket cauterised with silver nitrate). Her other eye is currently ok, but to keep it that way she has to be knocked out every 6 months so the vet can scoop out all the accumulated gunk. A rescue boy my friend owns has had both eyes removed due to recurrent infection.

There are other health issues reported, some of which may be specific to particular genotypes - e.g. failure of lactation in some true hairless genes - and some of which may be line based rather that variety based. Tbh, given you didn't plan to breed these guys, and not much is known about them in their line, I'd seriously think about not breeding them and getting yourself going with an easier variety from a strong line instead.

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