Really upset with FR

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Hobbit Stealer
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Re: Really upset with FR

Post by Hobbit Stealer » Wed Jan 08, 2014 11:50 pm

I realise I may be in the minority but I am happy for that section to exist on FR.

Yes, reptile forums do exist for information but the chances of finding reptile forums open to the idea of providing high welfare for breeder rats is slim. Anyone asking those kind of questions would be ridiculed. The best place in my opinion, for a snake owner to get the best advice on rat WELFARE is a rat forum where the members are passionate about rats and experienced in giving them the best possible care. Dismiss these people and send them all back to reptile forums and all you will get is more rats in racks and no improvement whatsoever to their lives. Nothing will ever change that way. Reptile owners exist; they aren't going to disappear.

You may not think people should be 'allowed' to keep snakes, Squirrel, but unfortunately you don't get to decide. People will continue to keep snakes and for as long as they do, the rats that are bred to feed them should get the best chances of having their welfare improved. In the same way that I would rather all animals farmed for humans to eat lived happy, natural lives outside, I would prefer feeder rats to spend happy enriched lives in decent cages on good diets, not in a tub in the dark living on lab blocks. The more people that keep their feeder rats in better condition the better, it's the only way it will become more normal and accepted to raise them decently. If one person comes to FR, and finds the information here to raise feeder rats in a cage with toys and food and light and company, instead of the usual way they are raised, to me that means it's worthwhile. You said 'I thought this forum was about the welfare of rats?' Yes, it is, that's the point of that thread existing. Feeder rats need people to care about their welfare too. Wishing they didn't exist doesn't help in the least.

I also think it is quite insulting and narrow minded to say all snakes should live on sausages, that they shouldn't be kept because their diet is gruesome (what are dogs and cats fed on? ever fed your rats chicken bones?) or to say something like 'I have no idea why anyone would want to keep a snake... you can't have a relationship with them' The kind of comment we rat owners get from rude strangers all the time, and we know how that feels.

Just to clarify I don't keep snakes, I am not actually sure I do agree with them being kept as pets (more to do with ethical issues to do with the pet trade in exotic species/conservation issues) but I really felt the need to stick up for reptile owners after reading some of these comments. How many people are bitten by dogs every year? They are potentially dangerous animals but no one calls for the blanket banning of owning dogs worldwide. And poor husbandry occurs for every kind of pet species. If we wanted to stop people keeping animals as pets because poor husbandry occurs because of their high needs we should ban everything. Because everything from hamsters and rabbits to pythons should be banned by that way of thinking.

Honestly I think if people are truly that upset by this thread existing, don't click on it? Don't read it. You don't have to. We all know that snakes eat rats and burying our heads in the sand doesn't help anything whatsoever. We don't cover up meat in supermarket aisles to stop vegetarians and vegans becoming traumatised at the sight of packaged meat.

I hate the idea of rats been farmed for food - but what upsets me the most isn't that they end up being eaten. It's their lives beforehand, and the terrible welfare most of them have to endure. I want feeder breeders improve and that's why I believe they should have access to the information and advice available here.

Maybe controversial opinions, but I'm just being entirely honest. Perhaps 'hiding' that area is the way to go. Although I personally think (without meaning to sound rude) thicker skins would also go a long way.
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Amzy
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Re: Really upset with FR

Post by Amzy » Wed Jan 08, 2014 11:52 pm

Well said Hobbit Stealer - better than I could have worded it :oops:
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Stovokor
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Re: Really upset with FR

Post by Stovokor » Wed Jan 08, 2014 11:53 pm

.
Amzy wrote:
Squirrel wrote:
Stovokor wrote:Sorry.....but if you make it request only, how are people who want to come asking questions in that section, ever going to know about it?
You could still have the heading with a message to PM mods to be allowed access, it's no biggie. At least then nobody would accidentally click on it (say a child) and see upsetting titles to posts on there.
Equally a child may get upset with some of the graphic images posted on the health section?

Or may get sad at all the depressing health related posts, or the ones where rat ownership doesn't *quite* go to plan, which is often the case.

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Re: Really upset with FR

Post by acapae_wolf » Wed Jan 08, 2014 11:54 pm

*gives Hobbit a cookie*
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Squirrel
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Re: Really upset with FR

Post by Squirrel » Thu Jan 09, 2014 12:02 am

Well I just think it is a bit rich that someone can come on here and report about a poor lonely rat that has been in P@H adoption for ages and not be allowed by mods to get help rehoming her, but people can get advice on how to raise babies to be killed.

Sheesh strange how 'welfare' is OK for some rats but not others. Afterall a lone rat in a pet shop can't help that is where she is anymore than a feeder rat can help being born a feeder rat.
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Re: Really upset with FR

Post by Amzy » Thu Jan 09, 2014 12:05 am

Then we go to the debate about how taking on rats in petshops is just making the rodent farms breed more to replace those rats...
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Re: Really upset with FR

Post by acapae_wolf » Thu Jan 09, 2014 12:07 am

No, you can't discuss killing.
Fancy Rats Admin in http://www.fancyratsforum.co.uk/viewtopic.php?f=113&t=97 wrote:Fancy Rats exists for the benefit of rats as a species and recognises the need for a forum where those who breed rats to feed other pet or captive animal species, such as snakes, can discuss and seek advice on the care and breeding of those rats. Methods of home euthanasia are not allowed to be described or discussed as per the forum rules.
Fancy Rats Admin in http://www.fancyratsforum.co.uk/viewtopic.php?f=6&t=4 wrote:DIY euthanasia of pets
As per the feeder breeding rule, we request that methods and descriptions of DIY euthanasia for any pet species is not discussed here. Allowing such discussions could encourage inexpert attempts at DIY euthanasia that could lead to increased suffering. Discussions of the methods of euthanasia employed by veterinary surgeons is allowed across the Fancy Rats board.
A life is a life whatever their 'purpose' however.
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Re: Really upset with FR

Post by StormySkye » Thu Jan 09, 2014 12:09 am

Hobbit Stealer wrote:(what are dogs and cats fed on? ever fed your rats chicken bones?)
This.

And Squirrel, your suggestion of "snake sausages" was a bit ironic... What are those sausages made of? Meat. Minced meat, amongst other things. Meat from a slaughterhouse. I was going to be really graphic in my descriptions, but decided not to do so at this point... but let me tell you, having been to a "humane" slaughterhouse, I can honestly say that I still have nightmares.

The whole point of that section is to provide some ethics and welfare for the rats that we care about so much. We will never be able to make it illegal for people to own snakes, and even if we did, it would still happen illegally. So the best we can do is try to provide a friendly atmosphere to help people see the best options of care for their feeder rats.

It is very sad that this happens, but have you actually watched the news? Do you know the conditions that cattle, sheep, chickens etc are kept in, transported in, the way they are slaughtered? It is a massive issue and if you want to bury your head in the sand, then that's fine, but that will never change anything for the sake of these animals.

If we keep trying to avoid it, these animals will keep suffering.

Now, I'm not trying to tell you to become a vegan or to force your omnivorous pets into a vegan lifestyle, because I think that is totally stupid. I just think you need to accept what's happening, and work towards getting information and education out there so that we can fight for better lives and rights for these animals.

No offence intended, but if you've gone 2 years without noticing that section, then I don't see why there's such a fuss now...
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Re: Really upset with FR

Post by Hobbit Stealer » Thu Jan 09, 2014 12:13 am

Squirrel wrote:Well I just think it is a bit rich that someone can come on here and report about a poor lonely rat that has been in P@H adoption for ages and not be allowed by mods to get help rehoming her, but people can get advice on how to raise babies to be killed.

Sheesh strange how 'welfare' is OK for some rats but not others. Afterall a lone rat in a pet shop can't help that is where she is anymore than a feeder rat can help being born a feeder rat.


This is a completely circular argument. Equally we could the say the same to you, 'a poor feeder rat can't help that that is where she comes from any more than a happy safe-for-children homeless rat in Pets At Home adoption centre'. Why should feeder rats be condemned to a continued life of horrific animal husbandry because some people can't cope with the idea of snakes eating rodents (their natural diet, btw... why not ban all mention of meat eating on the forum? We don't want children to accidentally come across threads talking about battery chickens) What about on the rescue boards? Should we be blotting out all the posts involving feeder rats needing rescue places in cage the word feeder triggers everyone emotionally?

If people were more open minded to these issues in the first place, educated themselves, paid attention and made sure other people did too, instead of sticking their fingers in their ears and going 'lalala! I can't hear you!' more would be done about all the multitudes of animal cruelty and welfare problems and we'd live in a better world.

Feeder rats shouldn't be losing out on the prospect of a better life because people may get potentially upset by the very mention of feeder breeding. That is the saddest thing, that people can so worked up about these things and then react by wanting to ignore it completely so these rats continue suffering.

Let those reptile owners get the advice they need for their RATS.
Last edited by Hobbit Stealer on Thu Jan 09, 2014 12:15 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Really upset with FR

Post by littlemonster » Thu Jan 09, 2014 12:13 am

I'd be delighted if some feeder breeders chose to improve their standards of care for the rats, surely even if they only have a few weeks, its better for it to be comfortable? And advice on reptile forums is simply how to minimise space and cost, no matter the cost to the rats. So yes, I'm fine with it here, and a section where hiding their reason for breeding may well be the best option.

I'd like to address a couple of snake things. Firstly, I'm unsure how ferrets being illegal in parts of the USA has any relation to snakes here. Many cities in the USA and Canada have banned rats, that's more relevant, so should our rats be banned? Many also ban things like gerbils.
Reptiles are far safer to keep than any mammal, actually. The dangers are based on myths and propaganda. Much the same reason rats are disliked and we get ridiculous stories about them, actually. You're less likely to be bitten by a snake or lizard in 15 years than other animals, plus they stay in doors secured in tanks so are less of a public health risk too.

And yes, snakes can eat "snake sausages" (if you can get them to eat it, which is almost impossible), but it'd be the same league as just feeding your rat lettuce. They'd survive, but not for long and they'd definitely not be happy or healthy. And it still has to be meat. Many people here feed their rats meet or own meat eating animals, plus of course eat meat themselves.

If you happen to be vegan and own no meat eating animals, then you have a right to be offended - but no more so than over the fact than my rats having a dog food in their mix, and my owning a dog.



I'd rather people who are breeding for food come here and those rats, whether they live for 1 day or 1 year and whether they breed 1 litter a year or 50, are better cared for during their lives, the breeding mums are cared for properly etc. And I believe there are limits of what they're allowed to discuss.

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Re: Really upset with FR

Post by Squirrel » Thu Jan 09, 2014 12:15 am

Amzy wrote:Then we go to the debate about how taking on rats in petshops is just making the rodent farms breed more to replace those rats...

Yes they are really going to stop rodent farms because of one little rat that needed help. Same mod who refused to let the lady get help homing the rat went on to advertise her own purposely bred litter a couple of posts later. Just seems terribly cruel to that one lonely rat that she couldn't get help but these breeder rats who were born with luck on their side were destined to go to great homes, no problem.
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Re: Really upset with FR

Post by Amzy » Thu Jan 09, 2014 12:27 am

Squirrel wrote:
Amzy wrote:Then we go to the debate about how taking on rats in petshops is just making the rodent farms breed more to replace those rats...

Yes they are really going to stop rodent farms because of one little rat that needed help. Same mod who refused to let the lady get help homing the rat went on to advertise her own purposely bred litter a couple of posts later. Just seems terribly cruel to that one lonely rat that she couldn't get help but these breeder rats who were born with luck on their side were destined to go to great homes, no problem.
There are around 400 Pets at Home stores in the country. If half of the stores all had one lone rat for sale, and they were all bought, that is 200 rats. That is 200+ more rats bred to fill those empty tanks.
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Re: Really upset with FR

Post by Squirrel » Thu Jan 09, 2014 12:29 am

Rats who could well go to good owners and have a nice live. Not going to happen to the feeders. Besides this was one single rat someone happened to post about, no way were people going to post about every single rat in P@H.

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Re: Really upset with FR

Post by Hobbit Stealer » Thu Jan 09, 2014 12:33 am

Squirrel wrote: Not going to happen to the feeders.
It certainly won't happen to the feeder rats if the people who breed them aren't able to gain valuable advice about good welfare and husbandry standards.
If they have to stick to the breeding advice of the reptile world then yes, forever more, these feeder rats will have horrible lives without a ray of hope.
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Re: Really upset with FR

Post by Amzy » Thu Jan 09, 2014 12:35 am

Squirrel wrote:Rats who could well go to good owners and have a nice live.
That's not taking into consideration that rodent farm rats are poorly bred with little thought to health. So maybe not a nice life with potential on-going health problems...
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