Really upset with FR

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StormySkye
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Re: Really upset with FR

Post by StormySkye » Thu Jan 09, 2014 9:26 pm

The only problem I have about making the FB section "request only" or "hidden" is that FB's may come on here and think it is "too much effort" or will "take too long" to gain access to that section and decide it isn't worth it.

I know that I often feel put off by those things if I'm just casually browsing a forum, and a lot of FB's may only be casually browsing at that stage. We want them to be able to access straight away so we can start providing instant information for them to start changing their practises, beliefs, ethics, etc.

As for children stumbling onto it... If they're so young that they get upset at the concept of some animals being carnivores, then they're too young to be on the internet unsupervised. As someone mentioned earlier, the BBC has a lot of worse stuff. Go on there and you'll see headlines popping up about children being beheaded Iraq or something like that. If kids are upset by these things, then the parents need to take responsibility for what the kids are seeing. The internet is NOT unfiltered - you can have access to literally anything. So parents need to be more responsible if they're worried about the kids' reactions.
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Laurali
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Re: Really upset with FR

Post by Laurali » Thu Jan 09, 2014 9:36 pm

I'm a bit demused by this whole thread. The role of this forum is to educate, support and advise anyone keeping rats. Ok, I may not keep snakes or ever want to but I do feel that every animal deserves the best of care. Now I think of myself as a really good owner and I would not feed my guys any old rubbish as I love my rats. I would hope that any owner would feel the same. If that is so then it only makes sence for feeder breeders to want to make the best food for their pets to eat. Better food better pets. I also feel that anyone who cares about pets would want to care for all animals in her care even if they were being used as food. I also think that is is wrong to say that there are only certain animals that should be pets, just because you personally don't like an animal does not make it and unsuitable pet. If that was so I would not have any rats as none of my friends or family share my love of furries. I also feel that as a parent you should not let a child on to an internet forum on their own, so the chance of them fining this section on their own would be remote. I also feel as a parent that children should know about these things and if they are old enough to be able to read and follow what would be written then they are old enough to know. I think it is important to have this section to educate and improve the lives of as many animals as possible. I do feel the same as others if you don't agree don't click it.
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squeakrat
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Re: Really upset with FR

Post by squeakrat » Thu Jan 09, 2014 10:26 pm

This has probably already been said somewhere (I have only scanned through a lot of the replies), but my understanding was that the feeder breeder section was created because occasionally someone will come on the forum, ask a generic sounding question about husbandry, and then further into the post it becomes clear that they are breeding to feed reptiles. This means that people who would rather not read about that kind of thing accidentally end up reading it (because the title is generic, it is in the habitat/feeding section etc). So any posts of this type will now get moved into the FB section so people can avoid them if this is their preference.

Sometimes feeder breeders do come on here and are genuinely interested in improving the welfare of their rats. I think it is entirely appropriate that the forum enables them to do this, and having the separate section allows people to avoid that type of thread if they don't want to read it.
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hannahbear
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Re: Really upset with FR

Post by hannahbear » Fri Jan 10, 2014 2:04 am

Definitely keep the feeder breeder section as it is in my opinion.

My brother has owned a snake since I was around 4 (I'm 20 now) and I have witnessed him feeding her rats throughout the years. At no point in my life has this been distressing, scary or has terrified me... it was just a matter of fact, the snake has to eat just like us. Now my brother does not breed his own rats - never has and never will - but it is nice to know though that the rats the snake is fed have had a good life. Their lives may be short, but I believe it is better for them to have a happy short life in a larger cage with better diet, than a cramped short life with poor food and no company :roll:
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neotoma
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Re: Really upset with FR

Post by neotoma » Fri Jan 10, 2014 2:44 am

As Mary has already said, the feeder breeding section exists, because the alternative of care questions being in the main forums has been tried and didn't work - people opposed to feeder breeding got either upset because they didn't want to hear about it, or abusive. Net result was the people asking questions left, and info useful to the rats wasn't got across.

By having a labelled section, people who find it upsetting can avoid it altogether, and those who want to give constructive advice can. It isn't a well used resource, but it is there if people need it. I think the suggestion of a concise sticky summarise major info as an addition is good.

Re. the access on request thing. The difference between feeder breeding and adult chat relates to the purpose of the board. Chat is an extra for the community - it's only available on signing in, and it's not relate to the purpose of FR. Making one section hidden unless requested, to allow people who want to talk about non-family suitable subjects to do so is therefore not a big deal.

FR - at its core - is about providing a resource on rat care. The forums relating to that are all completely open access and can be read by anyone, member or not. Making one of those, even a contentious one, hidden is a much bigger deal.

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Hanlou
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Re: Really upset with FR

Post by Hanlou » Sat Jan 11, 2014 11:04 pm

Am late to the party am afraid. :oops:

Newer members would not perhaps realise just how many Feeder Breeders did post on the old forum - and generally with the best of intentions - to improve the welfare of the rats in their care.

Such threads resulted in a lot of heated debate / offence etc etc - which was why this section was created here as has already been explained.

As for the keeping of reptiles as pets - having spent time on Reptile Forums recently for various reasons - I can honestly say that the people on there are just as passionate about their pets as we are. In fact given the complexity of keeping reptiles and the high costs involved you would *have* to be pretty passionate to keep them properly lol. :P

Like others - I think it's very ironic that people who keep rats as pets should be so offensive about people who keep snakes as pets given the way most people feel about rats!!

I won't be keeping snakes but I am getting more and more interested in geckos. I may end up going over to 'the dark side' at some point and become a reptile keeper! :o ;)
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HereticPr1me
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Re: Really upset with FR

Post by HereticPr1me » Sun Jan 12, 2014 1:54 am

Im not sure anyone was actually offensive about the *people* who keep snakes, just the suitability of them as pets - ie their captive feeding requirements do sit uncomfortably in terms of animal welfare and that's an unavoidable consequence of keeping them (especially when one's empathy favours of the small furry). If anything I feel the OP has been treated a quite roughly on the matter and without descending into quote warfare, I think as a forum we should endeavour to be mindful of each other's sensitivities on what is already an emotive enough subject. Not a dig at anyone, just a general observation on how the thread has progressed - lets not measure ourselves by the general internet standard eh :)
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So, with the dust of the matter mostly settling now, the Feeder Breeder (FB) section looks like it's here to stay and the case for it is more clear and accepted. Ultimately serving a greater good whilst not directly condoning the activity.
I would be interested to know if there is any plan to improve upon it as a "you ask first" section for feeder breeders then ? If it is to remain and serve its intended purpose then we should probably gather together the necessary information relevant to FBs in a way that most benefits the rats and present it in a clear way that is achievable for people looking to improve the welfare of FB rats.
That said, I wouldn't like to see such a section result in an "FR approved feeder breeder" badge, you know ? We should still "promote the care and welfare of rats as pets" even (especially) within the context of this section.
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neotoma
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Re: Really upset with FR

Post by neotoma » Sun Jan 12, 2014 10:27 am

As far as the ethical welfare of the diet goes, it is no more a barrier to keeping snakes than any other carnivore. It is just snake food is more visible as a whole animal, and more emotive to this particular community. The actual ethical and moral considerations apply just as much to farm animals. That's why the suggestion that snakes eating rodents is bad, but snake sausages are ok caused some surprise - is it somehow more ethical to rear in unknown and probably quite poor conditions then kill animals if they are pre-processed into a sausage before sale?
I would be interested to know if there is any plan to improve upon it as a "you ask first" section for feeder breeders then ? If it is to remain and serve its intended purpose then we should probably gather together the necessary information relevant to FBs in a way that most benefits the rats and present it in a clear way that is achievable for people looking to improve the welfare of FB rats.
I don't know if there is any plan. I see no objection to a sticky / article, but someone would need to have the time, and knowledge, to write it. I think such an article would be best written by someone with experience of the subject.
That said, I wouldn't like to see such a section result in an "FR approved feeder breeder" badge, you know ? We should still "promote the care and welfare of rats as pets" even (especially) within the context of this section.
What on earth makes you think anyone is suggesting or wanting anything like that?

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cyber ratty
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Re: Really upset with FR

Post by cyber ratty » Sun Jan 12, 2014 11:28 am

We are planning to put a stickied article into the FB forum, and we are looking into the feasibility of letting members opt out of seeing that forum, but it will remain visible by default.

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HereticPr1me
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Re: Really upset with FR

Post by HereticPr1me » Sun Jan 12, 2014 3:07 pm

Ethical diets isn't really my point, we know where food comes from (heck that's why Im vegan !), just that it's one group of rats go one way, and another go the other. That does touch a nerve with people, especially on a rat forum, hence comments get made about keeping certain animal types in the first place. I can understand that, and I wouldn't jump on anyone for it. I agree with you though, rats bred for food will get better care from an educated FB'er than from any commercial process, just like every other livestock animal.
neotoma wrote:
That said, I wouldn't like to see such a section result in an "FR approved feeder breeder" badge, you know ? We should still "promote the care and welfare of rats as pets" even (especially) within the context of this section.
What on earth makes you think anyone is suggesting or wanting anything like that?
Goodness no, I don't think anyone is suggesting/wanting it at all, just stating one possible connotation that we should head off from the getgo. I can see I worded it badly, it sounds like Im saying FR would award people a badge, no. What I meant was the possibility of people claiming (or mis-claiming) the approval of FR for breeding rats as snake food. That is how this whole topic got started in the first place after all ;)

EDT. Sounds good CyberRatty, thanks for that :)
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Jem Q
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Re: Really upset with FR

Post by Jem Q » Sun Jan 12, 2014 4:26 pm

Not to bash FR but it's not the be all and end all of the rat world, and if breeders in the Web Directory don't say they're "FR approved" I see no reason why feeder breeders would?
It would also be very easy to put a note somewhere saying that breeders on the forum are NOT vetted or affiliated with FR, if there isn't one already.

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Random_Bob
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Re: Really upset with FR

Post by Random_Bob » Sun Jan 12, 2014 5:29 pm

Actually, when I saw HereticPr1me's "FR Approved" comment, I thought it was a bit tongue in cheek. On reflection though, he has a good point. Wouldn't you prefer to see feeder-breeders being proud to state that their rats are kept in decent conditions ? When I buy pork products I always buy British free range stuff. Sure, the welfare standards aren't perfect but they're way better than in some countries. I agree that this forum should not be involved in endorsing feeder-breeders but the principle that they aim for high standards must be a good one. Perhaps snake owners would be prepared to pay a bit more for well-kept rats. They probably care about animal welfare, although their focus is reptiles.
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cyber ratty
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Re: Really upset with FR

Post by cyber ratty » Sun Jan 12, 2014 6:00 pm

Jem Q wrote:Not to bash FR but it's not the be all and end all of the rat world, and if breeders in the Web Directory don't say they're "FR approved" I see no reason why feeder breeders would?
Quite so - there isn't any kind of vetting done on rat breeders at all anywhere, whatever list they are on. We always encourage people to vet a breeder for themselves.

I don't think anyone would assume that a breeder is 'better' than any other simply because they post on this forum, nor that breeders (or any particular member) here necessarily agree with the FR ethics - and the same would be true of a feeder breeder.

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HereticPr1me
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Re: Really upset with FR

Post by HereticPr1me » Sun Jan 12, 2014 6:59 pm

Jem Q wrote:Not to bash FR but it's not the be all and end all of the rat world
Image
:lol:
Okies Jem, that makes sense when you put it that way. Ive seen FR badmouthed in the past and would hate to see our name misused, but I guess that's pretty unlikely then.
Cheers :)
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Midnight Rose
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Re: Really upset with FR

Post by Midnight Rose » Sun Jan 12, 2014 10:51 pm

I haven't got much to add to the discussion as it's all been said before. I'm very much behind the forum, which is probably obvious, for all the reasons already stated. I wouldn't want to hide it from public view (it defeats the point) but we are looking to see if there is a way to block the forum from members who would rather not see it, even from the outside.

Arguments tend to centre around the use of animals as food but there is plenty of death and distress involved in non-meat industries, like the pet trade, dairy or beauty, and I think we tend to forget that. I used to work for one of the most ethical companies out there, I learned so much from them and trying to live totally cruelty-free is, unfortunately, extremely difficult (I'm not even sure it's possible).

I support ethical feeder breeders (of all food animals) as I feel it's the logical choice. I keep animals in cages and I'm not a vegan, what leg do I have to stand on?! :lol:

If I criticised the use of rats as food I would consider myself a hypocrite and I would feel that I wasn't helping improve the lives of all rats, which is what I firmly believe this forum should be about.

I do have to admit that the very first time I gave my rats rabbit bones from my dinner I felt a bit weird. Then I felt weird about feeling weird and overanalysed why I felt weird. It's complicated living in my brain sometimes.
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